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| Topic Started: Jun 18 2009, 04:08 PM (879 Views) | |
| Andro | Jun 20 2009, 10:09 PM Post #21 |
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Seph's your completely right. I feel like most of the outspoken atheists are simply twenty somethings still rebelling against their parents. In this case, they choose something to blame and by distancing themselves from it they feel better about themselves. In fact, they're still a part of the same power constructs that oppress and destroy. At least they feel cool doing it! What has secularism brought us? A war against Islam. Our hypersexual state threatens their way of life and their pious state threatens ours. |
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| Liloqui | Jun 20 2009, 11:54 PM Post #22 |
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From what I deem to be important, and that alone. I tend to follow a mix of secular humanitarianism and the desire to better myself through knowledge.
Theology is "constantly evolving" because people can't get over the idea they don't have a soul and there is no afterlife, so there's always new bullshit to make up regarding it. If science could prove without a doubt there is a God and an Afterlife, so be it. However, all the evidence to date suggests not only the exact opposite, but also that every religious belief is a construct of a human being's psychological tendency to express their existence through a superior being;the alternative explanation is too complex or depressing for them to comprehend.
We happen to be right? Edited by Liloqui, Jun 20 2009, 11:55 PM.
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| I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person | |
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| Sephs | Jun 21 2009, 12:26 AM Post #23 |
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lol its the style nowadays dog get with the times but yea its like we're living in the we're not gonna take it music video mommy daddy i h8 u u never luvd me there is no god be original, be a fking scientologist or something but an atheist? pls rofl O RICHARD |
 "The strongest must rule if we are to survive" - Darth Malak | |
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| Sephs | Jun 21 2009, 12:31 AM Post #24 |
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o andro btw its a known fact that as soon as u declare urself an atheist ur IQ jumps up to gneius lvl |
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"The strongest must rule if we are to survive" - Darth Malak | |
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| Voyevoda | Jun 21 2009, 12:32 AM Post #25 |
RIP to the king of pop
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Anyone remember that Mormon that use to be in this guild. I fucking hated that guy. |
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| Sephs | Jun 21 2009, 12:37 AM Post #26 |
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u mean formic? ya join the fking club bro |
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"The strongest must rule if we are to survive" - Darth Malak | |
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| Wintermute | Jun 21 2009, 11:56 AM Post #27 |
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So Andro, what made you decide to return to Christianity? |
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| Khatib | Jun 21 2009, 12:19 PM Post #28 |
You so CRAAZZYY!!
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I'd like to hear more about how this happened. I'm guessing it involved you being depressed, losing a loved one, or just being disappointed in your life. So you "turned to God" and "felt better" and "good things started happening for you again," am I right? I'd like to suggest that you read this book: Jesus, Interrupted It's basically a short look at the historical-critical viewpoint on the New Testament. Something that is taught in pretty much every major seminary. The guy who wrote it is has a doctorate in New Testament studies. He didn't write the book to debunk Christianity, but to share the greater understanding of the religion that looking at the Bible in the context of when it was written gives. And to me, it gave me an even better understanding of how incredibly made up Christianity is. How Paul the apostle was an absolutely raving lunatic, the likes of David Koresh, Jim Jones, or Charles Manson. Christianity was a brand new cult. And the funniest thing about it is they didn't even decided to go with what Christ was teaching when he was alive. Re-read the New Testament and really study what Christ is saying. He's all about a coming apocalypse. In several places he says to those present that the end of the world will come while some of them are yet alive. In the earliest gospels, like Mark, he says that to get into heaven and be "right with God" you need to keep Jewish law even better than the temple leaders do. But then towards Luke, which is written a hundred or so years later, when more antisemitism has crept into the religion, it's preached that Jewish law has nothing to do with getting "right with God" but it's all about believe in the sacrifice of Christ and that Jewish law has everything wrong. Mind you, this book was written a solid 80-100+ years after Christ had stopped walking the earth. And the entire New Testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew, and most of Christ's actual followers were poor fishermen and tradesmen from Gallilee. They wouldn't have known how to read or write in the first place, let alone write Greek. The shit was written down a hundred years later, one or two countries away. And COMPLETELY molded to fit the desires of the authors, who lied about who they were to make it seem like they were an original disciple, etc, etc. It' s just funny though to actually look at the New Testament from a thinking point of view, instead of a devotional one, because the entire fucking thing just falls apart when you do. And that's what so many millions of people base their faith on, when the whole thing is just an extended sham. Never would have caught on if not for Constantine picking it up and making it the official religion of the Roman Empire. Of course, he pretty much only made it the official religion to try and get everyone on the same page, and avoid some brewing civil conflicts in the Empire, but with all the arguments between the Gnostic gospels, Marcionism, and other alternate views of what Jesus is actually all about, it wasn't getting the job done as it was only causing more unrest. So he called up the ol' Council of Nicaea, and they laid the groundrules for Christianity, including the Nicene Creed, which I can still recite today off the top of my head, which has at least three or four major themes in it that are not at ALL mentioned in the Bible anywhere, most notably the idea of the Trinity. So basically, the whole faith was made up by people who were hearing these random stories about some random dude, a country away. Note also that in NO Roman texts is Jesus ever mentioned. Christianity is first mentioned in like... 100 AD or something, and only in passing, not of any import. Don't you suppose someone pulling off crazy miracles, raising people from the dead, healing the blind, etc, etc, would manage to make it into some historical text? Don't you think the governor of the places he's doing this shit would hear of it? Don't you think then that when that governor condemned him to death, he'd make some note at least of the RUMORS??? But that's the thing -- that shit was never actually happening. People probably didn't even tell stories about that shit while Christ was alive. It was only after he died, and they wanted to claim the resurrection that they started adding in these tall tales of his miracles while he lived. To make him seem more divine chosen (it wasn't until long after his death people started saying he was actually divine in the first place). And those tall tales spread up and down the desert for a few generations, before people started writing them down. It's as crazy as if someone in California in 1850 would write a book about Paul Bunyon after hearing loggers who went to the gold rush in 1849 tell stories about him, and then that guy wrote a book in Spanish about Paul Bunyon's awesome deeds and people in Mexico got the book and started worshipping Paul Bunyon based on what some Spanish guy who barely speaks English got from some logger from Minnesota. Except add 100 years between when the guy told him the stories, and he told other people and other people and other people and then someone finally wrote the book. So you've got this incredibly fabricated thing in the first place, tainted as shit by human word of mouth oral story tradition across cultures and languages... And then throw in something like the Council of Nicaea where it's all "democratically" drilled down into an "official" belief structure -- over THREE HUNDRED years later -- by mostly bishops of churches in Rome -- being Italy of course, and Alexandria -- being Egypt of course... So far after and so far AWAY from Jerusalem and Nazareth and everywhere that it all started, and how in the fuck can you even begin to imagine any of what they wrote down and passed on to us has even a shred of truth in it? The worst kinds of Christians are the ones who try to take the text literally, because seriously, holy shit. Anyways, more to the original post -- I was born into a Lutheran Church Missouri Synod family, went to an LCMS school from K-8th grade. Was a pretty lazy Christian in middle school, felt a little more strongly about my faith in 10th and 11th grade for whatever reason, started to question it a bit in 12th grade, and had pretty much given it up completely by about two years after that. The biggest thing that got into my head for me giving it up was just thinking about the whole idea of the sacrifice of Christianity, and the basic logical fallacy of the religion as a whole. It's like... OK, so God sent his ONLY son down to earth to die for us. First off -- only? He's God, he can have as many as he wants, big whoop. And Jesus SUFFERED AND SUFFERED and died. He's an eternal being. Alive for Infinity and shit. Seriously, what is 30 years in the life of a being like that? The whole thing is like me bumping a thorn bush and going "Ouch!" and by the time the ouch is off my lips, I already am forgetting the pain. And oh no, he went to hell and had to deal with the devil. Well fuck, God knows everything, he knew exactly how this was going to play out in the first place. He knew the devil would lose, big deal? And to top it all off in the first place, if God was omnipotent, he could have set everything write with a THOUGHT. Not this giant convoluted SACRIFICE of his ONLY son. If I lose an arm, and I have the option so say "I need a new arm" and then I get a new arm... why would I instead chop my dick off to turn that into a new arm, and then live the rest of my life with no dick, and bitch and hold it over everyone that I had to go through this great sacrifice to get my arm back, when I had the option of just thinking it into existence again in the first place? That's the kinda shit that made me completely lose my faith, but I've been incredibly interested in how faith works in the rest of my life. So I've read a lot of books about it, a few about other religions, a few about atheism in general, a lot about Christianity. I read them for the same reason I've read Bulfinch's Mythology. It's interesting to me. It's kind of funny -- my roommate is really Catholic, and we watch Jeopardy just about every day... DVR it and watch it later... and any Bible categories, I dominate the shit out of them. And the other day after one such category he says, "Jeez Dick, you know more about the Bible than anyone I know, and you say you're Atheist or whatever." And I said, "Maybe you should actually read the book you base half your life on and you'd change your mind, too." And then he got mad at me and felt insulted or whatever. But it's true. If more people would actually sit down and study their book of faith, they'd realize how bullshit it is. |
| I *still* hate Brett Favre. | |
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| Andro | Jun 21 2009, 02:27 PM Post #29 |
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I don’t want to bore you with my autobiography, so I’ll keep this short. I grew up in a SBC church. It was ultra-conservative and sometimes fell into blatant hate speech. I disagreed with this and blamed Christianity for the congregation’s hypocrisy. I was probably 15 or 16 when I felt completely disconnected from all of the church’s teachings. I kept going to maintain friendships, but that was the only reason I attended. Once I turned 18, I completely stopped going and cut the majority of these people off. I am 22 now and I rediscovered my faith about a year ago. This mainly took place through individual study. Leo Tolstoy, Gabriel Marcel, Derrida and Dostoyevsky helped rekindle my faith, but Kierkegaard played the largest role. Simply put, Kierkegaard is the reason I consider myself a Christian. Khatib, Christianity is paradoxical. This makes being a Christian hard, but its difficulty is rewarding. It takes a leap of faith, which, is not easy to do. Often, people say that Christians are brainwashed (and some of us are), but a lot of us struggle with Christianity’s paradoxes on a daily basis. Also, thanks for the book suggestion. If it is in our library, I’ll check it out. |
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| Wintermute | Jun 21 2009, 02:47 PM Post #30 |
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I want to be clear. What are your beliefs? Primarily Southern Baptist? What is more important, Jesus or the Church? In your own words please sum up Christianity in 100 words or less. Thank you for your time. |
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| Sephs | Jun 21 2009, 02:48 PM Post #31 |
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lol reapplication process? O RICHARD |
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"The strongest must rule if we are to survive" - Darth Malak | |
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| Andro | Jun 21 2009, 03:19 PM Post #32 |
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United Church of Christ. Jesus' teachings precede the Church. Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. |
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| Khatib | Jun 21 2009, 04:33 PM Post #33 |
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You so CRAAZZYY!!
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Ok, it's time to start slingin some scripture up in here. Emphasis mine of course. Mark 8:38-9:1
Mark 13:24-27,30
Christ was a Jewish apocalyptic preacher. He didn't preach about himself being the Son of God or coming to atone for the sins of the world. He preached that the world as it stood was under the influence of evil -- likely this was personified by the Romans currently holding Jerusalem -- and that soon, God would come to defeat the evil ruling the world, and replace it with paradise, ruled by God himself and those appointed by God to rule. Including of course the followers of Jesus, who would be seated on 12 thrones, each ruling a tribe of Israel (note that he said this to the 12 long before The Last Supper, thereby indicating that Judas Iscariot would also be a top level ruler in the coming paradise, which is kinda funny when you know the end of the story). It's kind of like that really cliche angle you get in a lot of fantasy books. Their are balanced forces of good and evil, and they swing back and forth. Evil is on top for a while, then good comes back. Then evil sulks for a while, building power, then takes another run at it. That's what Jesus preached about. That evil was on top, but God was ready to come back and take charge again. The end of the age was near, with the next age being an age of goodness, and a paradise. Of course, when all those people died off, and God hadn't come back, and the age hadn't ended, everyone had a bit of egg on their face, didn't they? So they started reworking just *how* to interpret what Christ had been preaching, and started making out like the impending end of the age was Lord knows, pun intended, how far off. Because 'who knows just how long a day is to God, right?' even though there's absolutely no way to misinterpret, "before these people die, it will happen." Or "before your generation ends, it will happen." If you read the New Testament books carefully and separately, you still see Christ doesn't claim divinity Himself, and doesn't ever refer to himself as this Son of Man character. Matthew 24
Matthew 13
So it's all about the Son of Man throwing down on the unrighteous -- sometime before those still alive to hear this die off. Now, of course, Christians all consider "Son of Man" to refer to Christ. But when does Christ *EVER* make that claim? Nowhere at all in the New Testament. In fact, in Mark 8:38 that I quoted first, he says:
And he is CLEARLY speaking about two different people. Himself -- as a person -- and then this Son of Man -- who is someone else. It's reasons like this that the general Jewish population didn't convert to Christianity. Because Christ wasn't preaching about himself. He wasn't claiming to be the Messiah or an actual part of the Godhead -- divine himself. He was preaching about the impending doom of the apocalypse, and that everyone needs to repent and straighten up, because within the next 50 or less years (considering lifespans of that day, that's pretty generous) the current age of the world was coming to an end, and anyone who's still a fuckup is gonna get owned, hard. When you actually sit and READ the Bible, especially the New Testament, where there are multiple versions of what happened, and you actually read them side by side, comparing how they say things, and what they say, it's simply amazing what kind of truth you can pull out of them. And the truth is far, far different from what you get when you read them devotionally. Cherry picking verses that make you feel happy, or that supplement the sermon you just heard, or melding the books of the gospel together, rather than holding them apart based on their discrepancies and differences in meaning.
Ahh, the paradox. And the paradox is all just a big test right? It's not. It's not some great grand divine clusterfuck of a plan by God to test who is truly worthy. It's a gaping fucking plot hole left by generations of human tale telling and fuckery. And the brainwashing thing? If I came to you in your mid twenties, and tried to convert you to any other religion, you 99% of the time wouldn't convert. If I went to any other religion and tried to convert them, peacefully and without bribes of food and shelter and technology (like they do on Christian "missions" in 3rd world countries) they probably wouldn't convert. But if you're BORN into it, you've got a pretty high chance to hold the faith for life and pass it on to your kids. If you were born in India, you'd be a Hindu right now, not a Christian. If you were born in the Middle East, you'd be a Jew or Muslim, not a Christian. Don't try to deny that. And that is brainwashing, pure and simple, across the board, on every level, in every major religion. You asked earlier what makes me (well you asked atheists in general) better than you, simply because we are atheist and you are not -- well that's what it is. I feel superior to you in the same way you'd feel superior to some little 10 year old nephew who still believes in the Tooth Fairy, and Santa Claus, and the Easter Bunny, and who asked you questions about characters from movies he just saw as if they were real, because to his mind, they are still real. That's the way I feel talking to Christians about Jesus and the Bible. It's the fact that I can look at facts and see them for what they obviously are, and you are deluding yourself by still believing stories you were told while growing up, much like Santa and the Easter Bunny. It's the fact that I am a rational, logical, human being, and you are a sick, demented one, who refuses to face facts in favor of holding onto something for the simple comfort and familiarity of it, even though you know it's pure bullshit. That doesn't make me hate you though. Not the way (some) Muslims hate Christians, and (some) Muslims hate Jews, and (some) Christians hate Muslims, or Jews, or Athiests, or Hindus, or Buddhists. It just makes me pity you. And that's another way I feel superior to a lot of religious people. On the level of tolerance. I don't feel like you're doomed to hell or anything, and I thereby don't feel the need to save you. You're just a misguided child, and either you're grow out of it, or you won't. Either way, it doesn't bother me until you start to vote that way in my democratic nation. Then I start to bitch and whine about it.  Edited by Khatib, Jun 21 2009, 04:50 PM.
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| I *still* hate Brett Favre. | |
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| Andro | Jun 21 2009, 04:59 PM Post #34 |
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Obviously, there is no logical way to repudiate anything you've just said. But seriously Khatib, chill out. It's not like I shot you. |
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| Khatib | Jun 21 2009, 05:17 PM Post #35 |
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You so CRAAZZYY!!
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I ended with an emoticon and you think I'm flipping out? Like I said in my other post, religion, and mythology, both just really interest me. Get me started on something that interests me, and I'll tend to ramble on a bit. |
| I *still* hate Brett Favre. | |
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| Voyevoda | Jun 21 2009, 05:22 PM Post #36 |
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RIP to the king of pop
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You can always shut the fuck up. You think your bill maher or something. |
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| Khatib | Jun 21 2009, 11:47 PM Post #37 |
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You so CRAAZZYY!!
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Let me know when you decide to start bringing something that we can at least pretend to call intellectual to the table. |
| I *still* hate Brett Favre. | |
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| Sephs | Jun 21 2009, 11:52 PM Post #38 |
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i actually admire all the atheists in this guild |
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"The strongest must rule if we are to survive" - Darth Malak | |
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| Voyevoda | Jun 22 2009, 12:54 AM Post #39 |
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RIP to the king of pop
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Can't make fun of Khatib or you get threats i see. The dude has started more drama then anyone else in this guild and he has the power to delete my post. I know his your friend winter but wtf man. |
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| Dervin | Jun 22 2009, 03:43 AM Post #40 |
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this thread is pretty much the worst thing that has ever existed. |
| I am teh &b | |
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